For those who may be interested, here is a conversation I had with a Lutheran on the assurance of salvation. His comments are in black, mine are in blue (there is another fellow by the name of Mark also in the discussion. I have largely left him out except where we overlap. His comments are in red.It is not very tight, but I was short on time. I was not trying to set forth a foundation for assurance so much as point out that his accusations are sloppy since it cuts against the Lutheran position as well. Enjoy.
“So the question of whether or not Sam is elect translates immediately into the question of whether or not Sam has saving faith in Christ. Answer the latter and you’ve immediately answered the former.
But how can Sam answer that question? Well, by applying various tests suggested in Scripture (cf. 2 Cor. 13:5). When Sam reflects on his own beliefs, do they include the beliefs that he is a sinner in need of a redeemer and that Jesus Christ, the incarnate Son of God, has indeed redeemed him by his atoning death and resurrection? Has he been baptized? Is he a member of a Christ-honoring local church? Does he regularly partake of the Lord’s Supper? Does his life show the fruits of repentance, good works, and love for his brothers and sisters in the faith? Does he no longer love the world? Is he growing in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ?
Of course, these tests aren’t infallible. A professing Christian can deceive others and even himself. But the important point to see here is that the Calvinist is in no worse a position than the Arminian in this respect. ”
One cannot infallibly know one is elect, and one has to test to see if one is elect. The point in my question is not whether or not one may have an abstract system of doctrine that there are indeed elect, but how one knows for one’s self one is elect. ISTM that one cannot know one is elect “infallibly”. This is because “election”, in the document you cited, is “proved” by “tests”. By way of contrast, Lutherans look to historical acts and ask questions like “Did Christ die for me?” “Am I baptized?” “Do I receive communion” etc. The tests are nore in the empirical vein than in the theoretical.
Philip Cary broke down the syllogisms in this way:
The Standard Protestant Syllogism
Major Premise: Whoever believes in Christ is saved.
Minor Premise: I believe in Christ.
Conclusion: I am saved.
Luther’s Syllogism
Major premise: Christ told me, “I baptize you in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.”
Minor premise: Christ never lies but only tells the truth.
Conclusion: I am baptized (i.e., I have new life in Christ).
The article can be found here:
http://tinyurl.com/ye67k3e
So, ISTM that from a Lutheran perspective (and we would say a biblical perspective) the question regarding election is phrased incorrectly, that question is what has God done for me not how do I know I am really saved because God elects everyone who is saved. Calvinists cannot say with confidence “God saved me” without going through the tests outlined in the link you supplied, but since Christ never lies, we can infallibly know we are e.g. baptized.
* Did Christ die for me? –> Did Christ die to save repentant sinners?
* Am I baptized? –> Did I repent and trust in Christ?
* Do I receive communion etc. –> Do I bear fruit?
What’s the diff?
The difference is relying on historical acts vs. a subjective determination. You wrote “Did Christ die for me? –> Did Christ die to save repentant sinners?”
The question from a Calvinist POV is whether or not one is a repentant sinner. And as Dr. Cary and the article to which Steve pointed me state, this is subject to a lot of tests who’s outcome is in doubt. Also, as I am sure you know, the answer to the question “Did Christ die for me?” is always yes for Lutherans, but not for Calvinists. If you are not elect Christ did not die for you, which is precisely why one needs to show one has real, saving faith by the various tests.
You wrote “Am I baptized? –> Did I repent and trust in Christ?”
Again, it is the difference between an act in history by God and a subjective determination of one’s status based on tests. Whether or not I am baptized is more an empirical question, at least for Lutherans, than a theoretical one, which it can be for e.g Baptists who are baptized based on faith. But how do we know our faith is real in the first place? This is the issue Cary deals with.
You wrote: “Do I receive communion etc. –> Do I bear fruit?”
Again a subjective determination is required as opposed to objective criteria. If you have the time I suggest you read Cary’s article.
The “Protestant” syllogism causes one to always examine himself to see if he is elect, while the “Lutheran” syllogism points him to verifiable acts in history bu God. While the difference may be subtle, I think it is also clear. I also this difference is why “double Predestination” is such a difficult issue. Calvinists frame the question in such a way that one is always looking into one’s self to see if one’s faith is real. Lutherans frame the question in such a way we are pointed to the sacraments instituted by Christ himself.
1) That Christ died to save repentant sinners is an objective historical fact, not some subjective notion.
2) My personal connection with that historical fact comes in an actual historical point where I exercise faith in Christ. Asking how I know I actually believe is like asking you how you know you were baptized. I was there, I remember it. What if the mode of your baptism was not right? What if you only dipped your foot in? Does that count? I am genuinely curious on this point, do you believe that every Lutheran who was ever baptized will be saved? Zero exceptions?
3) How often do you have to take communion? Just once? 50% of Sundays? How regular before you will have “assurance?” What else did you have in mind with “etc”? How are these actual historical deeds different from the actual historical deeds that spring from my salvation?
You wrote
“1) That Christ died to save repentant sinners is an objective historical fact, not some subjective notion.”
That Christ died for repentent sinners is something with which I agree. But I also believe he died for all, which is why the existential question for a Calvinist is do I really have faith? For a ?utheran it is “Did Christ die for me?”
“2) My personal connection with that historical fact comes in an actual historical point where I exercise faith in Christ. Asking how I know I actually believe is like asking you how you know you were baptized. I was there, I remember it. What if the mode of your baptism was not right? What if you only dipped your foot in? Does that count? I am genuinely curious on this point, do you believe that every Lutheran who was ever baptized will be saved? Zero exceptions? ”
It is not the same kind of question because by what measure can you say your experience is real? By what measure can you say your faith is real? If it is by fruits, the natural progression of the question is how much fruit is enough?
As for me, I know the mode of my baptism is right because there were witnesses to my baptism. As to whether or not every Lutheran baptized is saved, I answer no. But that is beside the point, because even if I misuse my baptism it is still a baptism. From the Large Catechism:
“For even though a Jew should to-day come dishonestly and with evil purpose, and we should baptize him in all good faith, we must say that his baptism is nevertheless genuine. For here is the water together with the Word of God, even though he does not receive it as he should, just as those who unworthily go to the Sacrament receive the true Sacrament, even though they do not believe.”
Implicit in your statements are that experience validates the truth of your faith, which is in fact at we are diuscussing.
“3) How often do you have to take communion? Just once? 50% of Sundays? How regular before you will have “assurance?” What else did you have in mind with “etc”? How are these actual historical deeds different from the actual historical deeds that spring from my salvation?”
This question is stated in “Law” terms. How often I receive communion is not commanded by Christ, except for it to be “often”. And to ask the question is to show again the difference berween the Lutheran approach and the Calvinist approach. For embedded in your question is that if I don’t know exactly how often I receive communion I cannot be assured I receive enough. This is precisely what I have been talking about. An offer of grace from God in communion becomes a question as to whether or not I am sufficiently faithful in accepting it. FDo I do it enough? How often am I required to do it? etc. From our perspective, communion is a sort of “get” from God–when I receive communion I receive the forgiveness of sins, renewal etc. In the same way, when someone (even I) asks if I am one of the elect the anserr is “I am baptized…”
“I also believe he died for all, which is why the existential question for a Calvinist is do I really have faith? For a ?utheran it is ‘Did Christ die for me?’”
But since the death of Christ does not, by itself, select for whether you are saved, then you must face the same question. Faith is necessary in your system for salvation. If it is legitimate to ask “How we know we believed?” then it is also legitimate to ask that of Lutherans too.
“If it is by fruits, the natural progression of the question is how much fruit is enough?”
And if by communion, how much is enough?
“Implicit in your statements are that experience validates the truth of your faith, which is in fact at we are diuscussing.”
And how is your experience of baptism and communion different?
“This question is stated in “Law” terms. How often I receive communion is not commanded by Christ, except for it to be “often”.”
And how much fruit is not commanded either except that we be “fruitful.”
“And to ask the question is to show again the difference berween the Lutheran approach and the Calvinist approach. For embedded in your question is that if I don’t know exactly how often I receive communion I cannot be assured I receive enough.”
Not really, I was just pointing out what seems to be an inconsistency. Why do you insist I need a certain number of fruits but are content yourself with communion being frequent?
“From our perspective, communion is a sort of “get” from God–when I receive communion I receive the forgiveness of sins, renewal etc.”
Eating the Lord’s Supper is something you do. But you hold that although this is something you do, it is not your action of eating so much as God’s grace through the elements that is the basis. Although I do good works, my assurance is not in me but in the grace of the Holy Spirit who produces these deeds in me.
“But since the death of Christ does not, by itself, select for whether you are saved, then you must face the same question. Faith is necessary in your system for salvation. If it is legitimate to ask “How we know we believed?” then it is also legitimate to ask that of Lutherans too. ”
Not really, because the justifying faith in Jesus Christ is e.g. believing that I am baptized, that I am his child etc. It is a sort of thing I can come back to over and over. I know I believe because I do, just like I believe I live in the USA, what my father’s name is etc. in other words, it i snot s reflection on the quality of faith, but whether or not I have faith, and faith here is believing that God has done for me what he says he has done for me.
A Calvinist on the other hand, cannot say Christ died for him unless he knows he is one of the elect, which brings about the same kinds of questions we have been discussing.
“Why do you insist I need a certain number of fruits but are content yourself with communion being frequent? ”
Because of th e”Protestant Syllogism”. Here it is again for convenience:
Major Premise: Whoever believes in Christ is saved.
Minor Premise: I believe in Christ.
Conclusion: I am saved.
How does one know he believes in Christ? By fruits, as you have said. Now, how many fruits are necessary for one to know one believes in Christ?
Now, to modify the syllogism for the question at hand, the Lutheran syllogism regarding communion looks like this:
Major Premise: Christ offers communion for forgiveness of sins
Minor premise: I received communion.
Conclusion: My sins are forgiven
Now, if I understand Calvinism aright, the minor premise depends on whether or not one is elect or not. thus the syllogism looks like this:
Major Premise: Christ offers communion to the elect
Minor premise: I am one of the elect
Conclusion: I have received communion and my sins are forgiven
The whole system depends upon whether or not one is elect–or not, not on an objective event in history.
“Eating the Lord’s Supper is something you do. But you hold that although this is something you do, it is not your action of eating so much as God’s grace through the elements that is the basis. Although I do good works, my assurance is not in me but in the grace of the Holy Spirit who produces these deeds in me.”
And on what is your assurance based upon? (I don’t actually question your faith, BTW…) It has to be your own evaluation of the information you have. In lutheranism, the assurance is because salvation, faith, grace etc. are Extra Nos–it doesn’t matter how I feel about my walk or about baptism, it matters what Christ does n history.
Mark,
“How do you know you have done so in faith? Have faith?”
I believe Jesus Christ rose from the dead and I am baptized. I believe Jesus Christ forgives my sins in communion. I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, in the Holy Spirit etc. I believe these things, but I do not have a psychoanalytical explanation as to “why”. It is like, as I said, believing I live in the USA.
Edward,
I believe you’ve just answered your own objection against Calvinism.
MArk,
No, I haven’t, because a Calvinist may think he believes, he may even believe in the historical facts, but if he is not one of the elect he doesn’t really have faith, Jesus did not die for him, he was not baptized etc. A Lutheran, however, if he was baptized, is baptized even if he does not believe a word of it. If he receives communion he has received the body and blood of Christ even if he does not believe a word of it. I don’t think I have answered my own objection because the issue is still, for a Calvinist, whether he has real faith, not whether he believes he has real faith, whether Christ actually died for him, not whether or not he believes Christ actually died for him.
Edward,
If you have no faith, what benefit is baptism and communion?
Can a Lutheran ever have a false faith?
Perhaps we are not talking the same thing at all. Justifying faith in Jesus Christ is believing you were baptized? My faith is in the perfect life, substitutionary death, and resurrection of Christ. It sounds like your faith is not in Christ but in baptism. Please offer some correction here because this sounds weird.
Why can you return to your baptism but I cannot return to my conversion? I remember it quite distinctly. I remember everything about just as historically verifiable as your baptism (perhaps I have even more clarity of remembrance if you were baptized as a baby). You may remember being a a particular church in a certain city. I too remember the location of my conversion. You may remember which year, the time of year, day etc. So do I. You may remember being wet. I happen to remember being dry. Why do you insist that my conversion had no historical setting that I can remember while yours did?
You’re only confusing the question by continuing to go election. The question is assurance of salvation. We both hold that faith in Christ is necessary. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. If you can ask how I know I believe, so can I. The only way to avoid this is to posit a radically different content of our faith (which I’m concerned you do).
I’m not sure why your not following the parallels I am drawing. Let me try again:
“How does one know he believes in Christ?” Since both systems require faith in Christ, both the Reformed and the Lutheran need to answer this question. Hence:
“By fruits, as you have said.” And by communion you have said.
“Now, how many fruits are necessary for one to know one believes in Christ?” And how much communion is necessary for one to know one believes in Christ? If you only partake once a month is that enough? Once a year? Its still something you can remember.
You insist that asking how much is to frame it incorrectly. I concur. You insist that communion is an empirical means of grace and I insist that works are an empirical result of grace.
My assurance also is based in what Christ actually did in history, and how I partook in that work in actual history, which salvation is then worked out in actual concrete history. Its not based on my feelings.
“A Lutheran, however, if he was baptized, is baptized even if he does not believe a word of it. If he receives communion he has received the body and blood of Christ even if he does not believe a word of it.”
Are you suggesting that if a person is baptized and takes communion that he is saved regardless of what he believes? If a Muslim were baptized and ate communion but changed not his convictions, is he saved?
Brett and Mark,
Perhaps we are talking bast one another. Brett had a longer post with more examples, so I will quote from his post and hopefully Mark’s question will be answered too.
“Justifying faith in Jesus Christ is believing you were baptized?”
Justifying faith is believing Jesus’ words in baptism are true–that I am baptized. Justifying faith in Jesus Christ is trusting in Jesus’ words that he who eats his body and drinks his blood has forgiveness of sins. Justifying faith is believing that Jesus rose from the dead. In short, justifying faith is believing God tells the truth. It is like, as I keep saying
, believing I am in the USA. Once I have established that fact I don’t have to ask any questions about the quality of my belief, whether or not it is true, as it is established empirically. This is what I was trying to show with my baptism example.
Which clarifies the issue a little:
“Why can you return to your baptism but I cannot return to my conversion?”
Because one’s conversion in a Calvinist system depends on whether or not one has saving, or persevering, faith. If one doesn’t have saving faith it was just a subjective feeling and no conversion at all.
So, you can return to your conversion, but if the quality of your faith at the time of that conversion is not persevering faith there is objectively no “it” to return to.
Now, if God is not a liar, then I am baptized and I receive his gifts because he said I am baptized and I receive his gifts. There is no “conditional” as it is an empirical fact whether or not I was baptized.
“I concur. You insist that communion is an empirical means of grace and I insist that works are an empirical result of grace.”
The ungodly can do good works just like a Christian. The ungodly can receive communion just like a Christian, too. The difference is in the objectiveness of what we see–in the first case observing someone doing good works does not mean that person has persevering faith. In the second case it is a matter of looking at what is going on in the liturgy. This is why the quality of one’s faith is so important in a Calvinist system; unless and until one has assurance one can never be sure one has persevering faith except by weighing factors which are difficult to measure in the best of circumstances.
So…
Are you suggesting that if a person is baptized and takes communion that he is saved regardless of what he believes? If a Muslim were baptized and ate communion but changed not his convictions, is he saved?
“If a Muslim were baptized and ate communion but changed not his convictions, is he saved?”
To put it like Luther did, the baptism and communion are correct, but the Muslim did not receive it correctly:
“For by suffering the water to be poured upon you, you have not yet received Baptism in such a manner that it benefits you anything; but it becomes beneficial to you if you have yourself baptized with the thought that this is according to God’s command and ordinance, and besides in God’s name, in order that you may receive in the water the promised salvation. Now, this the fist cannot do, nor the body; but the heart must believe it.
Thus you see plainly that there is here no work done by us, but a treasure which He gives us, and which faith apprehends; just as the Lord Jesus Christ upon the cross is not a work, but a treasure comprehended in the Word, and offered to us and received by faith. Therefore they do us violence by exclaiming against us as though we preach against faith; while we alone insist upon it as being of such necessity that without it nothing can be received nor enjoyed.”
(Large Catechism Baptism)
The Muslim was indeed baptized, but he calls God a liar because he does not believe this is according to God’s ordinance; if he did he would no longer be Muslim. Faith does not make baptism because baptism is done by God. However, faith–understood according to the “Lutheran Syllogism” I cited before–receives the benefits of baptism.
Now, a Calvinist may be baptized, but if he does not have the gift of perseverance then his belief is unbelief and he is no better than the Muslim. He did not receive the baptism rightly. But another way, unless one is sure one’s faith is saving faith, one cannot be sure one was baptized–just like a Calvinist cannot be sure Christ died for him. This is because the validity of e.g. baptism depends not on God’s truthfulness but the subjective state of the subject of the baptism.
Earlier you said that “A Lutheran, however, if he was baptized, is baptized even if he does not believe a word of it. If he receives communion he has received the body and blood of Christ even if he does not believe a word of it.” You seem to have done a complete reversal. Now it does no good because he “did not believe” since this is something that “faith apprehends.” Per your new position:
If baptism doesn’t save you (which I am glad to hear you confess), then you cannot look to it for assurance of salvation in any sense different than how a Calvinist would look to Spirit wrought works. The baptism only acts as a means of grace based on your belief. The basis then has now shifted to a subjective element and is no longer tied to the more empirical nature of water itself. Your assurance is now based upon the subjective state of the individual. Your goal posts have shifted. For the Calvinist the question is how do you know you believe? That, as I have been saying, is also the question you have to answer as well.